MRI) is recognised as one of the most famous institutions where innovative ideas in interactional thinking, brief psychotherapy, family therapy, systems theory, and communication theory originated. 2. The influential paper, 'Toward a theory of schizophrenia, ' written by the pioneers of the MRI, launched family therapy as a discipline. 3. Watzlawick, a key early figure at MRI, believed that 80% of what we communicate is in analogical nonverbal communication. 4. Regarding communication/interactional theory, Watzlawick highlighted three core ideas of avoiding negation, understanding indicative and injunctive language, and using it to speak in the client's language. 5. The double bind hypothesis articulated by Bateson and colleagues is seen as a continuum of human experience of communication, a pattern of learned helplessness.This paper is extracted from a conversation I had in May 2022 with Dr Wendel Ray and Dr John Miller, which took place via Zoom. Wendel sits in Louisiana Monroe, John in Shanghai, China, and I in Perth, Australia. In this conversation, Wendel and John discuss their deeply personal experiences at the MRI, the key MRI figures who influenced their practice and teaching, and their 2021 publication concerning three central concepts in teaching and learning. They have both been influenced by the principles and practices as well as the spirit of the MRI and its pioneers and are now influencing new generations of systemic practitioners.Wendel Ray is a clinical social worker (Master of Social Work), a licensed psychotherapist, marriage and family therapist, and supervisor, and holds a PhD in systems theory, marriage and family therapy. He has been practicing for almost 40 years and has been an educator for more than 30. Wendel is a professor of family systems theory in the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Louisiana-Monroe (ULM). He has received several awards for his outstanding contribution to the profession and academia, including the Frances Davis Hammond Endowed Professor of Education in 2008 and the Hanna Spyker Eminent Scholar & Endowed Chair in 2014. Wendel is a former director of the MRI, as well as a former member of its brief therapy centre and strategic family therapy project. He is also director of the Don D. Jackson Archive and continues to serve as a MRI Senior Research Fellow. His areas of interest and research include systems theory and the application of communication theory to understanding human behaviour and interaction in promoting constructive change, the emergence of co-constructed reality, and comprehending the multiplicity of messages exchanged as people in intimate groups interact in ways that define the nature of relationships. Wendel has authored over 100 journal articles and book chapters, as well as 10 books that have been translated into eight languages. He is highly respected and frequently invited to conferences, including those led by IFTA (International Family Therapy Association), as a keynote speaker bringing alive the work of early systemic pi...